The State of Global Edtech

Welcome back to the Learning Experience Lab. And thanks for your patience over our brief hiatus when the tumultuous return of the autumn term settles down. If you're new to the show, then an extra warm welcome. I'm your host, Dan Hasan. And this podcast made possible by FeedbackFruits, has been exploring the insights and innovations in higher education over the past year. And today, we're featuring a conversation with our very own Max De Raff, who was keen to share his knowledge on trends in higher education, before he'll be embarking on a quest around the United States to meet with dozens of innovative colleges and universities. Lucky chap. Now in previous episodes, we've looked at both personal stories and research, as well as some broader frameworks at play in the world of instructional design. My desire with the coming series is to look at some of those elements at a larger scale. And that word scale is something I'm still trying to figure out as it's got an awful lot of meanings. It's what covers fish and lizards. It's the action of climbing a steep surface. And it's what I'm afraid of stepping on in the morning after a big dinner. But more importantly, it's what educational institutions are doing at various stages to apply the lessons learned and continue the innovation forcibly initiated during one of the most transformative periods in education yet, with no two regions, institutions, classes, or activities being the same. How can we ensure consistent effective learning design at all levels, and with stakeholders being variously instructors, designers, directors, but also students and future employers? What is the common objective that education needs to deliver now and in the future? This is how I've been thinking about scale. And I'm definitely not set on a definition. But in any case, it's a theme I'll be revisiting throughout this series. And that will be firstly in the sense of geographical scale, in conversation with Max, who will introduce himself. Now before we saunter into it.

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[Max] My name is Max de Raaff in Dutch. And I've been from day minus one at FeedbackFruits, involved in business development. That's my core project, having been doing that for three and a half years with a lot of fun, not absolutely downs. Also, of course, my job, that's it, I mean, like I started reaching out to business schools in Europe in early 2018. Currently, my projects are with the APAC region, but also working now with a small team here, trying to find ourselves some lighthouse accounts in Europe, and obviously, everything related to the US. And I got some side projects also. So I'm also working with the Ministry of Education in Israel, working with a few institutions in South Africa, even in contact with the university in Ghana. So those are just some little side projects just to see like, what are they doing? Right, like, what is their appetite in terms of digital learning? I think Israel is very, very interesting, because when you look at Israel, it's an it's an industry, it's a market is a region where they really want to go to the point that the Ministry of Education actually is I wouldn't say forcing, but really incentivizing institutions actually take the next step in terms of Digital Learning and Digital Pedagogy. And the only problem is, is that and that's what they also explained to me is where edtech companies are sometimes a little bit hesitant to enter into the market and really invest in it also, because the market really requires some investment in terms of language, with Hebrew, of course, platforms, they tend to read from right to left, instead of left to right, which is quite intensive. In terms of product development, Hebrew, we have got to support Hebrew, but I mean, it is just a very small market, of course, I mean, like if you want to change your platform to English, and then if that makes sense, Spanish also, but it is a little bit different.

[Dan] So with that in mind, does it make sense for one company to try to scale their solution to all these different sorts of needs when this example and Israeli edtech institution might better be able to understand that market and have a positive impact there?

[Max] I mean, we have to, I mean, like all those students, also, we also need to work towards a better learning experience for them. From a mission standpoint. Yeah, I mean, like we need to, but at the same time, the amount of impact that we can have in that market is relatively small compared to the investments that we have to make.

[Dan] That brings us to the question of how do you determine where you're maximizing their impact?

[Max] You may want to talk about this with Joost, of course, as a head of product. I mean, like, he's the one that determines what our roadmap looks like. But I mean, if you have to make a decision to translate your platform into Spanish, or you have to translate it into Hebrew, I mean, like, it's an easy decision, because the amount of Spanish students that could use it is a lot more than the Hebrew students. I mean, you just have to look at how applicable is it? That's how we look at our Dotech projects. That's how we look at an institution. I mean, like we look at Australia, the impact that I have when working with Monash for a year and a half and having them enter into a partnership with about 90,000 students have access to our technology, the impact there is a lot bigger than when we look at a smaller institution that has 500 students or 1000 students. I mean, the impact difference is huge. So that's how I like being very pragmatic. That's one way of looking at investment in terms of impact.

[Dan] Do we have particular ways of addressing, for instance, peer assessment better in one region than another?

[Max] I mean, we can look at in terms of like, how easy is it to enter the market? Another way of looking at it, like, what is the difference that you're making? Alright, let's just compare us to Australia, because it's relatively easy, right? When we're looking at the Australian region in terms of like, what these institutions are worried about in terms of Self and Peer Assessment is that they're very much worried about how authentic the feedback in the assessment is. And that is something that I'm a great fan of, because if you do self and peer Assessment or assessment in general, or feedback in general, those practices, they need to be from the person and they need to be on the content, but there needs to needs to be constructive alignment, of course, between learning outcomes, learning activities, assessment activities, and I think that Australia, there is way ahead of what is happening in the US, because I think in the US, everybody understands that peer feedback is important. But the next step after peer feedback, peer assessment, is what they sometimes find difficult. One big thing that I find difficult in the US is where faculty or instructional designers really want to use feedback for it's because they want to do authentic feedback. And they don't even call it authentic, but they want to do with feedback practices, but then the moments where let's say you meet them, right, you give me feedback right? Now, the problem here is that that feedback process is more intended for the faculty member than it is for me, that these faculty members, they actually prohibit me from seeing the feedback that you've given to me. Because they're like, no, because that's, that's, that's scary. And like, how did the students provide feedback to each other? Is it authentic? Is it like they might say bad words to each other?

[Dan] And is that something that you have to let institutions figure out for themselves?  

[Max]  No, that’s it. I mean, like, but besides that, it is intended for the student it provides, it provides a skill that is needed for the rest of your life. I mean, like, I'm 30, I still find it difficult to cope with feedback provided to me. I mean, that's my girlfriend. She gives me feedback every once in a while I'm, and I take it the wrong way. I mean, like, we have to educate our students as early as possible. I mean, like, I mean, I talked about this, I think with someone from Texas Tech University, and they were like, Yeah, but when i Whenever I'm not even just doing it in undergrad, we're going to implement this in K 12. Because these students need to know how to provide feedback, but more important, how to receive feedback, and , that pockets of innovation that makes me run.

[Dan] Is that something that's going to become a bigger part of education?

[Max] 100%, and you're seeing it already. And again, like, I'm a big fan of everything that happens in Australia, because they're, in my opinion, 10 to 15, at least 10 years ahead of bliss, compared to Europe and the US. I mean, like they're focusing there, they're transitioning, mostly due to COVID. into career ready skills, the students need to be ready for the career. So a core component of that is feedback, how to provide feedback, received feedback, like that transition is now being finalized. It's defined even in strategic plans.

[Dan] And whatever framework you put it under lifelong skills, 21st century skills, communication, collaboration, and teamwork processes are getting much more attention. So how do you make people see the value of it?

[Max] To be honest, not there are a lot of people that don't like me for it, because of my style. But the moment that a faculty member tells me like, Yeah, I'm going to withhold the feedback. I just asked him why. Yeah. And then there comes at us nine or 10 times a fuzzy story. And I just have three more why questions, and then when they don't get it, I'm like, alright, that's that's your choice?

[Dan] What are some of the reasons you come across them?

[Max] Basically, the biggest reason I said before, right, it's that I'm a, I don't want students to see the feedback, because I cannot guarantee that it's not going to be bad language. And it's about trust, trust in their students, just like the biggest thing still in again, the majority of US institutions, in my opinion, and is where the faculty member is still the most important person in a course. Where they are still seen as, hey, I'm the most important person, I'm going to teach them how it is, instead of looking at it more from a 21st century perspective, like, hey, not affected memory is the coach where they facilitate the learning process.

[Dan] An exchange of information rather than a one way transmission.

[Max] Exactly where it's really that the collaboration that forces the learning process, instead of the listening to the expert.

[Dan] Maybe another way we could talk about feedback here is Automated Feedback. You had a few comments on what Joost had said in the last episode, what's your view of the value of Automated Feedback position and its implications for the future?

[Max] I mean, I'm quite proud of where we are with technology and what it brings. But if we can take that to the next level, ensuring that not only feedback is rapid, but it becomes more insightful. Every rotation, the more you can scale. So because you can scale, you can scale quality instead of quantity, because that's what we've been doing in the 60s, 70s and 80s. We were scaling quantity universities, but now you can really scale quality because we all know, the more feedback the more personalized feedback that is given to someone, the better they learn because if it's something that they have done, you're more inclined to actually listen to it and Understand and trying to understand because it's feedback that's been provided to what something you did. So I wrote a paper. If I'm getting personalized feedback from something I did, I'm more inclined to read it than just reading a general review of something. Right?

[Dan] I look at it from a different way, which is a from the perspective of a grammar Nazi that on a purely pedagogical and individual basis, if a student or a teacher doesn't have to get distracted with the extra cognitive load of punctuation, stylistic semantic grammatical structure, formatting inconsistencies, then their attention is just able to go on to it. So you've mentioned how that can be scaled. But yeah, I've looked at it in a very kind of individual way that it just makes that feedback process for the process itself, the mechanism through which you can give feedback, an easier process. So it's part of a bigger feedback process. It's leading onto something. And that's the ability of the actual human in the picture to give higher order feedback on the headset and argumentation. Right.

[Max] That's it. I mean, like I didn't, I did something fun the other day, right? So because I was speaking with an institution in the US, and they were quite interested in the automated feedback, but they had some hesitations, right? Because they were like, Yeah, but how can we guarantee quality and basically what you're saying, right, like removing those easy to give feedback practices, like indeed, like punctuation, like, they put the correct name to the figure, etc. And then I was like, right, how am I going to prove this person on a day to day basis that this actually is the case in real life? So what I did was, I looked at one of our other tools assignment review. It's where teachers provide feedback to work, basically, what Automated Feedback does, but then in a manual way? Yeah. So one of the functionalities in assignment review to that specific tool is where a teacher can actually copy a ..

[Dan] Reuse a feedback comment.

[Max] Reuse the feedback, that's the word I was looking for. So I actually looked at a relatively big assignment, I think there were like, 150 to 200 students in the course. And there was this one teacher that basically reused in 80% of the reviews, this same comment. So 80% of the time, he clicked on, use previously used review comments

[Dan] We’ve made it easier for him to reuse that instead of typing out or manually. But wouldn't it be better if he didn't have to use it in the first place.

[Max] Right. And that was just some basic things. It was something basic, like, Hey, look at the structure, the structure should be like this. Now, that's how you set it up. And I know the structure is a little bit more complicated, like, it's not something that Automated Feedback can already cover. But let's say Automated Feedback can cover that, like when it can analyze the structure, it can analyze, like, hey, a paper like this should be structured as follows. Something like that, if we can actually make Automated Feedback do that, then you can save so much time for the teacher, which is important, of course, but let's look at it from a student perspective. The student gets automated feedback directly about their specific piece like, hey, X and Y should actually swap it around. I mean, like, you don't have to wait four weeks, five weeks to get your paper back, even if it's just one week, because you've been doing three other courses at the same time, which I don't agree with either, by the way, but yeah, and that's the biggest difference that I see in other edtech vendors compared to feedback fruits is when we're not just looking for a solution that that some technologies fixes a issue is because I do think that we can actually look at it from a pedagogical perspective, like, hey, what does the pedagogy require instead of technology? And that is, and that's also why we've made things that didn't really work because the technology would have been too complicated to actually make sure the pedagogy works. But by trying and by looking at it from a different perspective, and just being agile, and just alright. Let's jam a tool out in six months and see what happens. I think that that came to great results, Comprehension for examples, my favorite tool.

[Dan] On the product release review today, we looked at the Automated Feedback coach.

[Max] Right, there's one thing that we've that we need to be careful of and that is, I love the Feedback Coach. Really, I think it is. It's a next step like what we started discussing, right, like the process of providing feedback. Providing feedback depends like hey, your feedback that what I'm writing about Dan right now, like it's constructive. Is it positive? Am I explaining myself and I'm making it actionable? Yes, yes. Yes. All right. Fair point. But now, my worry a little bit with the Feedback Coaches is that if we develop it in such a way that it becomes a replacement of a student thinking for themselves, that's something that worries me a little bit. And we're not doing that on purpose. But I just hope that we're not, we're not making the technology too good. If you see what I mean.

[Dan] Yeah, well, that's a great way to talk about the relationship between edtech institutions and students, and also something that comes up in wording everyday for me, when I see allusions to we make teaching easier, we make feedback easier. I don't like that phrasing. And I'm not happy with that. Because it's not about making a process easier, or increasing one metric of completion or success. You have to look at a more holistic picture of what is the value gotten out of that process, rather than did it go well, and they got the tick.

[Max] I know. But that's the whole point, which like an easier, I mean, like when you explain easier as being like, hey, the process itself, we make it intuitive and easy to use, then I'm 100%. Correct. But the process itself, we should actually make it a little bit more difficult, we should make sure that the students actually find it more difficult to provide a peer feedback activity with feedback fruits, because if we challenge them enough so that they start thinking more than if they would have to do it on paper. That's the differentiator. Yeah, because when I was studying, we also did a peer feedback activity back in the day. That was in my, during my Bachelor's, we had to look at this report that this other group made, right. So we looked at it, and basically, our teachers asked us like, hey, write three things down that you like, and write three things down that you didn't like, I was done in 10 minutes. Because I found three things that I liked, I found three things that I didn't like. But how's that? Challenging my beliefs, because it's a very easy, easy to do task. I mean, they're actually implementing FeedbackFruits in their courses now, which is really fun. But so I sit down with the same teacher, I'm like” “Hey, remember what I did. 5 to 7 years ago, let's do it like this”. And now I sat with him for an hour and a half, thinking about his rubrics. At first, he didn't want to do a rubric, because he was like, Yeah, that's a lot of work and whatnot. It's like, right, and then ask him, but just think about it. Because you have to make sure that these students when you ask them, like, hey, evaluate the structure of this report, that is not just like, give it a 6 out of 10? Or tell you what would you like about him? No, you need to tell them also, what is a very good structure, what is a very bad structure? And then let them think about what does that mean for this structure? So if you give them ...

[Dan] What's the reason for that? It's like how can you evaluate success if you don't know what success looks like? And that is what a rubric is doing? Right? That's why you have criteria, so that you know whether the learning objectives have been met in the first place.

[Max] Yeah, but also like making it critical because if you give it a 4 out of 5, and that means good, then you have certain requirements that are accomplished with good means, now your students? Yeah, as a student, you kind of just put in good, because.

[Dan] Without knowing what good means.

[Max] Exactly. So you have to go back into the paper and look at it like alright, requirement, one pass requirement to know requirement three, yes. So that means two out of three. So we have to go back one step, or it's fine enough, depending how you look at it. And that's that mental process? That's a differentiator, if you asked me.

[Dan] Yeah, and that mental process is very much more in the pedagogy than the example of feedback that I have from my personal life, which before in a while, before FeedbackFruits, online feedback activities required the use of four or five different pieces of software to download, share, edit, upload, export, and then be able to read that feedback. And so the difficulty of the process wasn't in thinking critically about how I'm going to give a constructive comment to my peers based on their work or skills. But how many different tabs do I need to open up? And what's the most effective way to switch between them? And then for the teacher, of course, to compile and analyze that data among various spreadsheets, which also need to be downloaded? It's an exhaustive, cumbersome process, I think, when you're making the part of the process difficult, which is the pedagogy and the challenge to the mental and critical thinking of the student, rather than the administrator.

[Max] Yeah. And that's, and that's why I think we can be quite good. And that's also why our partners appreciate it, and the teachers appreciate it. Also students, because the administrative part of it, that's straightforward, not a pedagogical part of it. That's the difficult part. And that's what they should do. Alright, let me explain it the following way. I think it was Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs once said, right, because he always used to wear the same clothing, the same turtleneck color, the same thing. I think my director did it also, basically, when I was like, 18-19, director at the time, the company was working, he always had the same white shirt. He always had the same pants in the same shoes. And then I heard the story of Steve Jobs, I went to my directors like, Hey, are you doing the same thing? And he was like, What do you mean, he's like, you're always wearing the same clothes. He said, he told me, I do that, because that means I don't have to think about it. Every Monday, every Wednesday, every Friday and Tuesday and Thursday. Also, I wear the same thing. So my mental capacity remains for the difficult decisions I have to make on a day to day basis. That's exactly what we do at FeedbackFruits, we make sure that those clothes are sorted. You don't have to think about it anymore. So the mental capacity that you have in your brain you can actually use to learn.

[Dan] I never thought you were going to give an example that would relate to fashion. But there we go.

[Max] Fashionable that is that

[Dan] You both dressed exactly the same way back. So I didn't come back to you. It'd be a cupboard to all of us.

[ Max] Thank you so much.

[Dan] Indeed, I'm wearing a favorite sweater represents. Yes, that's it. All right. I've been trying to get a general picture of the differences similarities in edtech regional scalability, and so we can talk about how important feedback is and how it is being noticed by institutions. Like, implemented and valued in different ways, as well as feedback, have you got other examples of how that can happen that things are implemented in different ways. And to different outcomes.

[Max] Were like when I started in this industry three years ago, like, to be honest, I never thought that I was set one step in a university after I graduated, my experience was horrible, like, all along was horrible.

[Dan] And yet you came back to work with education again.

[Max] Yeah, it's because of Ewoud, because I met him like I was introduced to him. So we had a beer. And then I said, it will never work for you. He's like, why? So? I basically, and that was one month after my graduation. So for just 10 minutes, I gave him everything that was horrible. You know what he said? He said, You're perfect. Come work for me. I'm like, why? He said, Because you're frustrated. So use your frustration, actually, to inspire people like, alright, I'll try. Why not? Yeah, no. But what I was trying to say is like three and a half years ago, I had no clue. Because I was just talking to people, I had no clue. I just, I needed to figure out like, what are you guys doing? Like, what do you worry about on a day to day basis? And for two years, I still didn't get it. Because everybody was saying something different? Like, right. So this, these are your challenges. That's interesting. These are your challenges. But then COVID happened, right. And then everything collapsed. Like all of my conversations, all of the institutions I was working with, were like, I don't have time for any innovation anymore, because I just need to make sure that everybody knows how to log in my LMS. Literally, there was one gentleman I'm not gonna name him at a university in New York, also not going to name it. And two weeks after basically COVID collapse, and now I get in a call with him, right? And I'm like, we need to start conversations. I think he's like, Yeah, we should like, why, like, I know, but why he's like, it's really bad. And what do you mean? And then he told me that he now realizes that over 50% of his faculty members, they didn't know how to log into Canvas, over 50%. He's like my super intelligent instructional designers on a day to day basis, hosting workshops on which button to click just to log in. And then he didn't even tell me and then I have my Zoom issue, because now I need to tell everyone how to use Zoom. It was that bad. But the best thing is now COVID happened, right? So now, I started fresh, because everybody was at the same level, in my opinion. But now after COVID, I can now really see the differences like Right, like we were our specific regions focusing on. And the fun part is like Australia, they're still very much the self assessment, of course, now more into authentic, authentic feedback, authentic assessment, career ready skills, but also the use of AI, like they're really had an effect on us in terms of data, data insights, like University of South Australia, for example. I mean, like what they're doing with the LMS, with their ethics, is mind blowing. Like, I'm so super impressed. But then interestingly enough, oh, by the way, you really want to have a podcast and on the block model from Victoria University. I'll do it together with Michael Sturmey. What they're doing that's in my opinion, like that's, that's that's the educational model where I'm in love with but okay. All right, this is the future, in my opinion. But we'll touch upon that. Now. So that's basically the APEC region, in my opinion, right. Now, when we're looking at our efforts in Europe, I think, in general, Europe is the furthest behind in terms of things like digital practices, digital learning, they're very much still, like focus on instructional teaching and learning.

[Dan] Yes. Lecture.

[Max] Yes. Like the teachers are still super important, right? Like, they need to learn from the teacher, but they're moving finally, like, after all these years, they're moving. They're understanding, like, what the pedagogical practices that they want to implement are still relatively basic, in my opinion, like flipping the classroom or blended learning. And that's, and that's very good. Like, I'm very happy that this transition is happening now. But that's predominantly what they're doing, in my opinion. But what do you think?

[Dan] I would say that it's very recognizable with European institutions to have a more transmissive and transactional style. The exception to that was my now a little bit dampened down shock that after coming to the Netherlands, I would address my professors by their first name. And I wonder how that is in the rest of Europe? Because I know that yeah, it can differ. But I do see that as an illustration of where it's more progressive, even if adoption of pedagogical innovation.

[Max] 100%. Like, like, really, like, I'm just talking mainstream, right? Like, when you look like there's so many like very, very, very innovative ways of doing pedagogy, you're like, just look at comprehension. Like is one of our tools. I mean, like the pedagogy behind comprehension is, I think, one of the favorite, my favorite pedagogies that we support or look at Maastricht University. I mean, like, they are one of the founders of problem based education. I mean, like our Peer review and Group Member Evaluation tool. They originated out of the Dotech project with Maastricht University. So I think that really, really shows how in Europe they're also very innovative pockets and HEC Paris, for example, how they're transforming their courses to work towards digital pedagogy is something quite marvelous.

[Dan] Any more shoutouts to European institutions you want to give? Yeah, of course.

[Max] IE University in Spain, Team-Based Learning, I mean, this is the new one. I mean, like that's the exact example of collaborative learning approaches, which I personally am a real fan of. And now with our new tool, the new ultimate learning tool that the pedagogy came from IE I mean, they didn't design it from the basics, but they're the ones that basically I'm sticking my neck out, we're gonna do this. And that, that mentality, that's for Europeans, I'm sticking my neck out. I'm doing it anyway. Like that is something that you see less than us, for example.

[Dan] Yeah. And even though that pedagogy is from the 70s, if there's a way to do it in an innovative and applicable context dependent way, then why not do it.

[Max] But look, but think about me, like it's from the 70s. And we still and that's the ridiculous part of this industry. And my apologies for everybody who's listening. That is, like, offended right now. But, I mean, Tim is learning the pedagogies from the 70s, when 2021. That's more than 50 years later, and now we're like, automate learning. How is that possible? Something that has been designed 50 years ago, we're still excited about it. That means that this industry has been basically standing still for so many years.

[Dan] I think you can find more illustrations to that point, honestly, I know. Okay, we talked about APAC and Europe. But let's go back to the US cuz you're planning a trip there soon.

[Max] Yeah. Thanks for that. Yeah. So I'm flying on. We're still battling, like getting actually inside the country. They said we could enter by November 8, but our first meetings with the University of Minnesota on November one, so we got a little bit of an issue. But we might have found a way, but we'll update you later when we actually made it. Otherwise, I'm going to be stranded in Toronto for two weeks. Yeah, no. So we're going to the US. And I'm to be honest, like I'm super, super, super excited about the developments in us, because three years ago, when you were talking to somebody about digital pedagogy, digital learning. And when we hit somebody that was actually like, oh, yeah, I really really care about this. That was like one once every week. And now it's people calling us they're like, on the phone with my inbox is like, yeah, I remember you, we need to talk right now. And that change? Alright, I'll tell you one example. This was at Carlson School of Management from the University of Minnesota. With an instructional designer over there, like, I know, like, we know them now for a good three years. And I remember one of our first conversations was like, Yeah, we need to implement self and peer feedback, like, sure, sure, of course you do. And he, we were having some difficulties with finding enough faculty to run a pilot, because everybody was a little bit scared and was like, I don't need it, my course is all fine. Results are good, whatever. Now go for a game. And I guess I get on a call with that instructional designer, we just, we just want to have a coffee like our coffee. And he's like, Max, I'm not sure what's happening. But like, all these people that were telling us like, I don't need it, I don't want it. I know, like, Oh, how did it work again. And like that difference, that's what we're seeing in the market like that difference where people are, like, 180 degrees spin. And I mean, the main difference where everybody's focusing on is like, HyFlex, providing flexible learning environments, flexible learning paths, not just online, like it's gonna be the blended format is going to be in an asynchronous, but also synchronous format. But I mean, like that change, that is also a, I wouldn't say what gets me out of bed every morning. But this is something that makes me smile when I bike to the office every morning.

[Dan] And you know, just smiling because you want to go and rub their noses in it.

[Max] No, because if I do that, then I'll be too arrogant.

[Dan] Any closing remarks, anything you want to say about the US?

[Max] I'm really excited about what higher education is doing at the moment globally, the transition in making unique selling points of university, the learning experience, again, that is something that I'm just a big fan about. And I'm super excited to go to the US again, we're going to be visiting about 30 to 40 institutions in five weeks. And that alone, like getting new insights and hope is hopefully inspiring a lot of people to rethink their courses. That is something that yeah, I don't know. I'm a little bit of a pedagogy nerd. I think

[Dan] It sounds like the holiday of a lifetime for a pedagogy nerd. That's it. I'm really looking forward to hearing your report back after you're back from the US. Yeah, let's alright, let's do that. Let's set that up. Doing so much. That is fun.

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Big thanks to Max and best of luck to the team in the US if you're listening. After almost two years without onsite visits, I can imagine you're both bursting with energy to share with our partners and pilots over there. And back over here in the Netherlands. Next time we'll be featuring a conversation from a design based education author researcher and my former professor Dr. Arthur Baker of Utrecht University. Incidentally, I was also asked to host the university's Teaching and Learning Lab Autumn Festival on the 12th of November featuring a session with the very same Dr. Baker alongside many other innovators in the Dutch higher education sector. He also happened to be by former instructors, I'd love to invite any and all listeners to join this free online event. You can find a link to sign up in the description of this episode. And as always, if you have any comments, queries or questions about this episode, or about what Max and flat are up to in the US, please don't hesitate to reach out on social media or email us directly. And thanks for joining us in the Learning Experience Lab. Until next time.